A bit of explaining to do...

Hi All,

I have been fairly silent since I set this up so I thought I should post and explain my actions / thoughts...

From the day I joined SP I have barely spent a single day without viewing it... I'm that addicted, it's effected my work, my social life (maybe in a good way)... and my bank balance (but I do have a happy little stack now - not the best, but she's mine).

After a while on SP I started to get the undercurrents that it was not as toted an open, non commercial community but a sales and advertising excersise for PAP / VOID... and lets be honest, VOID have done very well from the buzz that they have created on SP.. maybe not as well as they had hoped, but that's another story... most SP readers / posters would openly promote VOID products within a heart beat.. that's how good a form of advertising the forum is / was.

While I really do not have a problem with SP being a commercial venture, if it is, it MUST be presented as such.. like the Bill Fitz forum, if you go there, you know what to expect.

I'm not anti-Void or Rog (who is actually a really nice guy and in some ways I think he is innocent in this whole setup)... I have not actually heard much if any VOID gear running bar the porn horn (OK not really a VOID product but still), if that's anything to goby then they really are very nice cabs / designs.. Rog really is a true enthusiast and gifted designer, nobody can take that away from him.

I was shocked and appaled when Alex (I'm guessing it must have been Alex) banned Tony (without warning), one of the all time greats in speaker land, another true enthusiast, gifted designer and fountain of knoweledge on the forum... the forum would suffer without him, so why on earth would you ban him? UNLESS OF COURSE IT INTERFERES OR CONFLICTS WITH THE OWNERS / ADMINS COMMERCIAL INTERESTS... which is of course why he was banned.

This is what winds me up, everyone posts on SP and makes the forum what it is, with no payment, just for the love of it... but really, what's happening is the real contributors are being used by PAP / VOID to populate a forum which feeds there pocket...and if things start going in a way that doesn't work for them they start banning... NOT GOOD GUYS.. NOT GOOD ATALL.

I set this forum up in less than 24 hours because :

1. PRIMERELY I wanted a backup plan, if VOID/PAP pull the plug on SP I want to stay in touch with the people I have met on the forum, we have a good community I don't want to lose that... (I wouldn't know what to do with myself if it dissapeared..like I said, a true addict!).

2. I don't like the "we are a free and open community" image presented when in actual fact it's a money making excersise... I'm fine if you present it correctly / truthfully.. but don't lie to me.

3. Monitoring PMs... jeezus... who are you guys? You must think your running an empire or something (been doing much coke lately?)... setting up this forum was my way of saying we don't need you, your NOT in control of us, and judging by the mass migration it looks like many other people had the same feeling (even the mods.. and that says something really doesnt it!).

4. I thought I could setup this forum in a way that would demonstrate that a TRUELEY INDEPENDENT forum can both encourage trade / commerce but not dilute content.

I'm both shocked and encouraged by the number of members, posts and words of encouragement, this forum / community means alot to me, I will do everything I can to keep it running.

Just to reply to Alexs comments :

laxskan wrote: Tony has notbeen banned but bygetting him to re-sign he would have re- read, (I hope) the terms and conditions which he is obviously in breach of.

Honestly Alex.. who reads the T&Cs.. I bet Tony didn't when he re-joined.. weak mate, weak.

laxskan wrote: Speakerplans database/website is quite big now and we get alot of grief from our hosting company if we go over our alotted bandwidth/disc size.

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Is PAP / VOID doing THAT badly.. is possibly the best advertising medium going (if you used it correctly).. cough up or shut up really, it ain't all that expensive.

laxskan wrote: Whilst trying to reduce the size of the speakerplans database we noticed a very high number of PM, 90% of which we regarding selling, and Im afaid almost all Tony PM were regarding selling of some description.

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UTTER BOLLOCKS!! if your trimming the DB compress the really old threads, close old threads etc etc... which is exactly what's available on the admin interface... reading PMs isn't so you actually made an effort to do it, that was nothing to do with DB size (and again, cough up or shut up if it was).

laxskan wrote: I have had several complaints about selling on spakerplans and Im afraid Tony was one of the more guilty parties.

Sorry, Who complained? Your bank manager?<O:P></O:P>

laxskan wrote: I have no gripe with Tony in fact I have alot of respect for the man, so much so that I contacted him recently to see if he wanted a job.

So... you offer him a job, doesn't go ahead, he sells a few bits and bobs... you ban him... NICE!<O:P></O:P>

laxskan wrote: We introduced rules a while back to try and prevent direct selling on speakerplans as it was getting quite bad and the forum was becoming a big buy/sell site. But it looks like all that has happened is that the selling has moved to the PM instead

As others have mentioned, what do you expect when a load of like minded indeviduals get together to discussobjects that cost money / have value... TRADE is what happens.. your just pissed that the trade was not coming your way... again, if you had made it clear that SP was a commercial venture you would not have this problem (but then the site wouldn't be so busy either would it).

laxskan wrote: The last thing anybody wants is a forum, that’s fragmented and diluted.

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ABSOLUTLY!!.. if anything, this is the one thing that worries me... but it looks like the real hardcore are over here anyways.. so, meh.

laxskan wrote: As regards to users/posts being deleted some older PM have been deleted recently (I think if they are more that six months old), nothing else has been touched.

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My whole inbox dissapeared... messages were not old atall... I even mentioned it on the public forum.. I doubt I was alone.
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laxskan wrote: As regarding the accusation of hypocrisy in that Rog openly sells Void on this site, as I have said before, hes not engaged in direct selling, he might tell you what hes working on but that’s it.

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Still good advertising, if Tony Andrews came on the forum and started bigging up his latest design / product would the posts stay?.. again, I doubt it.

laxskan wrote: I encourage and welcome constructive comment on this matter, to ensure that speakerplans continues as it was intended as a technical information tool and meeting point for like mined enthusiasts of sound.

I encourage and welcome constructive comment on this matter, to ensure that all our users don't run off to a new forum where we cannot control posts / discussions and VOID product reviews.

Overall... SP is / was the best site for PA discussions (lets forget PSW cos it really is a bore).. it could do sooooo much for VOID / PAP but you misuse the powers it brings, and don't take advantage of the good it could do your business.. for that you only have yourselfs to blame.. (BTW.. STILL NOT ONLINE SALES FROM PAP.. that would atleast resolve your phone answering phobia!)Edited by: Adambomb

i agree, im with you till the end
Also it really pissed me off how Rog would throw a tantrum every now and then and threaten to close the forum just so people would step in and say 'oh Rog you do so much for us, blah blah blah'

It was getting to the point where every 6 month you could expect him to throw a tantrum

But another option is always nice... the way i see it is now i have double the speaker posts to read!

This is f**king erie (sp?)

But good stuff Adam, im glad to be here. I havent been on SP for quite a long time, and considering I probably posted more than anyonefor a while thats hard to get used to! (sad!)

This is so spooky..... thats all i can say for now..... i dont even get whats gone on entirely....

Completely agree with what you have said there, (just read it all)

GraduallyI willduplicate one or two of my more useful posts to this forum....

Lets not forget the rants from Rog: Lazy Chinese that eat too many carbs. The Roots scene rant not so long ago. Insomnia........ Now ANY of the above may or may not be true, thing is it is just completly unprofessional and comes acc
across as paranoid.
Anyhow, raise your glasses, a toast to Adambomb

I dont think speakerplans was originaly a commercial venture, as i
remember it was running for years before pap and void were setup.
Theres a big PAP advert on the main page so i dont think anyone
pretended it wasent being use as a marketing tool for pap, though it
does seem if anyone elce used speakerplans as a marketing tool PAP
didnt like it, wich leads to the question whos forum is it, IMO its as
much tonys as anyone elces.



I think you can only have it 2 ways, eather have no marketing and
selling at all allowed on the forum, or allow people to do what thay
want to do, like you say adam trading is enevitable.

Personally I find it hard to accept SP was a marketing tool for Void or PAP, think you are adding 2 and 2 to get 5 mate.

As I said on SP, I think SP admins should just state SP is sponsored / funded by Void/PAP, and so no direct selling that is in competition with sponsors is permitted.

That way everything that is frowned upon over there will probably show up here or SJ, and no figures behind close doors will mysteriously disappear people/threads/PMs.

When I found out Tony was banned I had steam coming out of my ears. Although I've never met him I have had dealings with him and have no doubt he is a true gentleman. I also think it's unrealistic to try and prevent selling, It's a law of nature that if you put any 10 people together at least 2 are going to sell something. It benefits the community when people have the benefit of others trading experience and any bad deals are immediately publicised. More power to you Adam.

Thanks Markie!

I would like to take a moment to explain about the forsale sections that you / Tony got without asking...

Basicaly, the way we want to arrange the forsael sections is one of the principal differences between SP and FSP, I needed to make those sections to illustrate a point.

It does make sense for you have your own sections, that way people can post direct questions about your products / services without clogging up the rest of the for sale section... it also acts as a good showcase for your stuff... and it means people know where to go for info / contact info etc.

It also means, in most cases, the more helpful a seller is on a forum the more sales they are likely to get, which encourages sharing of knowledge from the more experienced amongst us.

The main site is progressing well, we will be online with it shortly (and I'll say now, I'm pretty sure the plans that will be available on our main site will blow away the old stuff!).

Peace.

Adam.